Greenbelt Group: unlawful demand for payment

[Julian]

I live on a new estate in Cumbria built by Senator Homes. On this
estate, maintenance of certain public areas is carried out by a private
company, The Greenbelt Group, and clauses in the deeds require us to may
an annual maintenance charge to this company. These clauses set out when
the charge is due, how much it can be (including a formula specifying an
inflationary cap on the amount of increase) and the penalty charges the
company can make for late payment.

Despite emphasizing the homeowner's obligation to pay under the terms of
the deeds, The Greenbelt Group itself plays fast and loose with the
letter of the agreement. It demands payment before the due date
specified in the deeds (1st June), imposes late payment penalties above
the amount specified, and this year has added on an additional charge
over and above the inflation-capped increase, to pay for "remedial work"
caused by storm damage.

The Greenbelt Group has refused to reply to my questions as to the legal
basis on which it can require residents to pay this extra charge.

I paid what I calculated I was legally obliged to pay, and have now
received a letter threatening further action if I do not pay the remainder.

In attempt to get The Greenbelt Group to respond to my simple query, I
have now documented my complaint and posted it in the Internet at this
address: http://www.theparklands.co.uk/. I have written to The Greenbelt
Group and to Senator Homes, stating that I have done this, and will only
remove it when I receive an answer to my question. I would have expected
this to have provoked an immediate response but so far - nothing.

I have now written to the local press and the finance / property problem
pages of some national newspapers about this matter. The issue is no
longer just about the £20 extra charge, but about The Greenbelt Group's
attitude to its customers, who don't have a choice in the matter (since
we are locked in to this agreement through our property deeds.)

Most residents have paid the extra £20, either because they set up a
direct debit and couldn't be bothered to cancel it, or because they
couldn't find the time to argue about it. But just about everyone is
unhappy about the standard of maintenance carried out by The Greenbelt
Group and the way customer relations are handled, and this extra charge
which I believe they have no right to ask for is just adding insult to
injury.

Someone advised me a while ago just to let them take me to the Small
Claims Court over this, but the attitude exhibited so far by The
Greenbelt Group suggests that they might not do this. I have been heard
that they prefer to send round debt collectors - and my wife is
understandably anxious that she would have to deal with them, and would
prefer that I just give in, pay the £40 they are now demanding and put
an end to the matter.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Julian
Someone advised me a while ago just to let them take me to the Small
Claims Court over this, but the attitude exhibited so far by The Greenbelt
Group suggests that they might not do this. I have been heard that they
prefer to send round debt collectors -

More likely to try and charge your deeds or make silly demands when you
sell.

Post by Julian
and my wife is understandably anxious that she would have to deal with
them, and would prefer that I just give in, pay the £40 they are now
demanding and put an end to the matter.
--
Julian Moss

Your neighbours might have more spine if they are told that a silly
freeholder can seriously damage the value of their homes - since they will
have to declare the spurious extra charges, penalties and any dispute(s) on
a purchase inquiry form whenever they sell...

[Julian]

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Your neighbours might have more spine if they are told that a silly
freeholder can seriously damage the value of their homes - since they will
have to declare the spurious extra charges, penalties and any dispute(s) on
a purchase inquiry form whenever they sell...

Perhaps that's why they prefer to pretend it's OK, and just pay, so they
have no disputes they have to declare. And perhaps Greenbelt bargained
that that's what people would do, so they would get away with this
extortion?

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Julian

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Your neighbours might have more spine if they are told that a silly
freeholder can seriously damage the value of their homes - since they
will have to declare the spurious extra charges, penalties and any
dispute(s) on a purchase inquiry form whenever they sell...

Perhaps that's why they prefer to pretend it's OK, and just pay, so they
have no disputes they have to declare. And perhaps Greenbelt bargained
that that's what people would do, so they would get away with this
extortion?
--
Julian

Of course Senator Homes (possibly related) may well being trying to sell
more new homes - a press article or two, a extra board they don't notice for
a while...

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Julian

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Your neighbours might have more spine if they are told that a silly
freeholder can seriously damage the value of their homes - since they
will have to declare the spurious extra charges, penalties and any
dispute(s) on a purchase inquiry form whenever they sell...

Perhaps that's why they prefer to pretend it's OK, and just pay, so they
have no disputes they have to declare. And perhaps Greenbelt bargained
that that's what people would do, so they would get away with this
extortion?
--
Julian

OTOH my original response (cancelled) was rather confrontational.

They seem pretty mild see: -

http://www.greenbeltgroup.co.uk/html/faqs.html

[Julian]

Post by R. Mark Clayton
OTOH my original response (cancelled) was rather confrontational.
They seem pretty mild see: -
http://www.greenbeltgroup.co.uk/html/faqs.html

Yes, they try to maintain a good public image. However, these FAQs are
quite telling. I see they have added a new one, second from the end,
about "the residents want to remove Greenbelt Group."

The problem with fighting anything like this is the difficulty in
getting people to do anything jointly. When this issue first arose, I
got the local press interested, then turned them down at the request of
someone who was trying to form a resident's association who claimed she
had good relations with Greenbelt, which I might spoil. So I did, on the
understanding that they would bring the matter of this charge up. As far
as I know, they didn't, although they apparently had a meeting with
Greenbelt, to which I was not invited.

It turned out that this resident's association was just something done
out of pure self-interest by someone who was selling her house, to try
to get Greenbelt to come and tidy up areas adjacent to it. Now that she
has (presumably) succeeded in this aim, the resident's association email
address no longer works, and a neighbour who was asked to be involved
has heard nothing about it for months.

[Bluesky]

http://www.greenbeltgroup.co.uk/html/faqs.html


Unless they genuinely openly dont care I suggest a few of us from this
newsgroup take two minutes to email them , any decent company who receives
say ten emails on the same subject from different people has got
to take interst and attempt to resolve the matter

With your permission i am happy to do so and if you can find out the
MDs email address them all the better .
--
Cheers
Paul [Bluesky Marketing]
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I live on a new estate in Cumbria built by Senator Homes. On this estate,
maintenance of certain public areas is carried out by a private company,
The Greenbelt Group, and clauses in the deeds require us to may an annual
maintenance charge to this company. These clauses set out when the charge
is due, how much it can be (including a formula specifying an inflationary
cap on the amount of increase) and the penalty charges the company can make
for late payment.
Despite emphasizing the homeowner's obligation to pay under the terms of
the deeds, The Greenbelt Group itself plays fast and loose with the letter
of the agreement. It demands payment before the due date specified in the
deeds (1st June), imposes late payment penalties above the amount
specified, and this year has added on an additional charge over and above
the inflation-capped increase, to pay for "remedial work" caused by storm
damage.
The Greenbelt Group has refused to reply to my questions as to the legal
basis on which it can require residents to pay this extra charge.
I paid what I calculated I was legally obliged to pay, and have now
received a letter threatening further action if I do not pay the remainder.
In attempt to get The Greenbelt Group to respond to my simple query, I
have now documented my complaint and posted it in the Internet at this
address: http://www.theparklands.co.uk/. I have written to The Greenbelt
Group and to Senator Homes, stating that I have done this, and will only
remove it when I receive an answer to my question. I would have expected
this to have provoked an immediate response but so far - nothing.
I have now written to the local press and the finance / property problem
pages of some national newspapers about this matter. The issue is no
longer just about the £20 extra charge, but about The Greenbelt Group's
attitude to its customers, who don't have a choice in the matter (since we
are locked in to this agreement through our property deeds.)
Most residents have paid the extra £20, either because they set up a
direct debit and couldn't be bothered to cancel it, or because they
couldn't find the time to argue about it. But just about everyone is
unhappy about the standard of maintenance carried out by The Greenbelt
Group and the way customer relations are handled, and this extra charge
which I believe they have no right to ask for is just adding insult to
injury.
Someone advised me a while ago just to let them take me to the Small
Claims Court over this, but the attitude exhibited so far by The Greenbelt
Group suggests that they might not do this. I have been heard that they
prefer to send round debt collectors - and my wife is understandably
anxious that she would have to deal with them, and would prefer that I
just give in, pay the £40 they are now demanding and put an end to the
matter.
--
Julian Moss

[Julian]

Post by R. Mark Clayton
http://www.greenbeltgroup.co.uk/html/faqs.html
Unless they genuinely openly dont care I suggest a few of us from this
newsgroup take two minutes to email them , any decent company who receives
say ten emails on the same subject from different people has got
to take interst and attempt to resolve the matter
With your permission i am happy to do so and if you can find out the
MDs email address them all the better .

The only email address published on the website is
***@greenbeltgroup.co.uk. Given the failure of other methods to get a
response from them, I have never even tried to use email.

Unfortunately the server on which I placed my protest site,
http://www.theparklands.co.uk/ is currently inaccessable a lot of the
time due to denial of service attacks.

Last night I sent copies of my deeds over to a very helpful lady named
Kathryn at the free legal advice service of Direct Line, who promised to
look them over and give me a second opinion as to whether Greenbelt has
the right to make this extra charge, although she wasn't sure if my
policy really covered this.

I received a reply from Senator Homes to my letter addressed to their
MD, saying that he was out of the office but would certainly look at my
complaint and reply on his return. Unfortunate, that, as I had hoped
pressure from them would force Greenbelt to reply.

I have received NO reply from Greenbelt Group to my letter informing
them that I had published details of my complaints on the Internet. The
date for paying the final demand has now passed, so I am now into the
"further action" stage of debt recovery, presumably sending round the
heavies.

[Julian]

Post by Julian
Last night I sent copies of my deeds over to a very helpful lady named
Kathryn at the free legal advice service of Direct Line, who promised to
look them over and give me a second opinion as to whether Greenbelt has
the right to make this extra charge, although she wasn't sure if my
policy really covered this.

Well, I got the result of the legal advice, but it was basically that
the thing is worded in such a complicated way that it was beyond the
scope of the free advice service to deal with it. She then went on to
say that I would have to get an accountant to work out the amount of the
inflationary cap, even though it is self evident to me that no inflation
calculation could cover £20 on top of a £65 basic charge.

The only other thing I got was that, although the clauses in the deeds
set a limit on the increases in the annual maintenance charge there is
nothing to say that the estate maintenance company cannot make
additional charges for other matters. ******* lawyers! So it seems that
if they want to get more than the last years charge plus inflation, they
can basically add it on under some other pretext and we have no
alternative but to pay it.

This really makes my blood boil. Exactly what is the point of all the
legal paraphernalia involved with buying a property if you can end up in
a situation like this? And why go to the trouble of including an
inflation capped clause, if it isn't worth the paper it is printed on
(never mind the £200 an hour rate of the legal brain who drafted it.)

This whole business of outsourcing maintenance of green areas on estates
has only come about because local councils want to have their way and
force developers to leave these areas to make thingls look nicer, but
want other people (rather than council tax revenue) to pay for the
maintenance of them. The result is that residents on new estates are
locked into arrangements with unaccountable private firms, instead of
dealing with the local council which has elected members and can
generally be held to account.

I really feel like stirring up a campaign over this. However, I see that
I could make myself really unpopular with people who may be less
concerned about paying out an extra £20 or so a year for no reason than
on the effect it could have on the value of properties that have these
maintenance arrangements. Not that this is necessarily going to stop me...

I was advised to pay the charge and the exorbitant late payment fee. I
am so ******* angry right now.

[Mike Harrison]

Post by Julian
The only other thing I got was that, although the clauses in the deeds
set a limit on the increases in the annual maintenance charge there is
nothing to say that the estate maintenance company cannot make
additional charges for other matters. ******* lawyers! So it seems that
if they want to get more than the last years charge plus inflation, they
can basically add it on under some other pretext and we have no
alternative but to pay it.

.. but surely there would need to be something to say that they _can_ make additional charges ?

[Julian]

Post by Mike Harrison

Post by Julian
The only other thing I got was that, although the clauses in the deeds
set a limit on the increases in the annual maintenance charge there is
nothing to say that the estate maintenance company cannot make
additional charges for other matters. ******* lawyers! So it seems that
if they want to get more than the last years charge plus inflation, they
can basically add it on under some other pretext and we have no
alternative but to pay it.

.. but surely there would need to be something to say that they _can_ make additional charges ?

Well, exactly. That's what I thought. If you go to
http://www.theparklands.co.uk and then click on one of the hyperlinks
you can see that I have scanned the actual sections dealing with the
maintenance charges, and it seems clear enough to me, even though it is
worded in legalese, that the estate management companny can increase the
amount of the annual charge to whichever is the lower of:
- the pro rata share of the TOTAL COSTS of managing the amenity areas;
- the previous year's charge increased by an amount in line with inflation.

The problem is, how many lawyers do I have to go to, to get an
adjudication, and how do I get Greenbelt Group to agree to this?

I invite anyone reading this posting to go to the site mentioned above
and read the relevant sections of the deeds that I have uploaded, and
post back here whether you can see a loophole that allows them to make
additional charges. I also have a set of 8 scanned pages that I can
email to anyone who is willing to look at the deeds in their entirety.
To me, the use of the term "total costs" in the section defining what
they can charge, rules out any possibility that they can separate
"remedial work" from general maintenance.

[News]

We had a similar problem with a different company in Falkirk, Scotland.
Where the company was charging high fees, not doing work, asking for more
payments etc.

We got the majority of owners in the street together and went out and got a
company at nearly half the original companies bid and 8 months down the line
they are still good to their word the work being done the street has never
looked better.

Some of those still opposing the charges just paid in the end since they
were saving more than the amount on the new company anyway and just wanted
everything finalised.

Maybe you and your neighbours may be able to, hopefully, do the same

I live on a new estate in Cumbria built by Senator Homes. On this estate,
maintenance of certain public areas is carried out by a private company,
The Greenbelt Group, and clauses in the deeds require us to may

[sue hunter]

Julian,

We are having the exact same problems in Adambrae, Livingston. I a
thinking about starting a residents revolt.

I would be interested to speak to you - could you email me you
number?

Kind Regrads

--
sue hunte
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[f***@gmail.com]

Post by sue hunter
Julian,
We are having the exact same problems in Adambrae, Livingston. I am
thinking about starting a residents revolt.
I would be interested to speak to you - could you email me your
number?

But beware, English and Scottish law differ considerably on just this
kind of an issue.

Could the OP confirm that this is not an "estate management scheme",
which would clarify things a bit.

Francis